The Hidden Cost of Being "Always On" | Recon Marine Mike Keevil (Part 2)

Formation And What Comes Next

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Warriors fall in. It's time for formation. So this is part two talking to Mike Kevel. Mike, the first half of this conversation, we talked about your time in the Marines, the environments you operated in, and some of the real experiences from mortuary affairs to joining Marine Recon. Now I want to shift into what all that actually meant. And because there's a lot of people listening right now, whether they served or not, who are trying to figure out how to deal with pressure, identity, and making better decisions in their own lives. So let's go there. Let's talk about it. After everything you went through, I believe we finished off. You were just getting back from Afghanistan. Talk to me about uh what happened when you came back.

Ego Check With A Champion Shooter

USPSA Adrenaline And New Training Mindset

Handloading, Alcohol, And Control

Failing Chrono And Building Discipline

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Yeah, so overall, um now uh I can I turn 41 tomorrow. Uh actually, wait, what time is it? Oh, in in an hour, I turned 41. Happy birthday. Um it it took me a solid decade to uh fully process and get on the path uh to heal. Um I uh I'm gonna go backwards a little bit uh because the this was uh uh this was a pretty wild thing that happened. So uh back when I was on the my second deployment, I was stationed in Little Creek, Virginia, and I was taking a flight home out of Norfolk, and uh I'm sitting next to this guy, and we just start shooting the breeze. And um he was a former Navy SEAL, and I, you know, tell him a little bit of you know, wave tops of my experiences, and he goes, Hey man, like how are your dreams? And I was like, uh my dreams are gory, but they, you know, I was like, it's kind of just whatever. And he goes, Hey, be careful in your 30s. And uh I was maybe 22 or 23 at the time, and like all 20, 20 somethings are just like whatever, old dude. Um uh so I didn't really heed his uh advice. And and I tell you what, it it definitely came crashing um in around my my 30s. So uh what it was like when I came back, um, I didn't realize how uh how high strung I was. Um there were a couple close friends who would pull me aside and be like, dude, are you good? I'm like, yeah, what are you talking about? Like in my head, I'm like, hey, I'm doing my job, I'm doing the things. Um, but they're like, dude, you're like really high strung. And um, you know, the the examples I talked about in the last episode, I mean, that was that was one mission, man. Um my battalion, we were in sustained, like all six platoons were in sustained engagements uh for over a hundred days. Um 240 engagements, uh 47 urgent surgicals. Uh, I mean, it was it was wild. Um and so, you know, I I did what most men do and I just go back to work. Um, and then in around that time uh we met. But um I think this is a pretty important a pretty important thing to to bring up uh was uh going to that location. And before that, uh I I told them where I was going, and everyone's like, oh dude, you're gonna you're gonna work with JJ Ricasa. And I was like, pfft, like never heard of her. And they're like, dude, he's like the number two pistol shooter in the world. And I was like, yeah, I don't care, dude. And um at my previous uh site, um, there was a guy and he tried getting me into competitive shooting. And I I'm I have the confidence to tell this story right now. I I started a training journal and I wrote one paragraph on the first page, and I still have it. I didn't I didn't burn it, and and and I'll share it with you. So in the journal, I wrote that uh I was like, hey, uh, this is gonna be my training journal. And um I wrote in there, hey, like this guy wants me to get into competitive pistol shooting, but I'm afraid that it will affect me tactically. And I wrote that, and then it must have gone in a drawer or something. I didn't see it again for years, and I pulled it out later. Dude, I wanted to burn it. And uh and I didn't, I kept it. Um so I uh I meet JJ and I see him shoot. And earlier in the last episode, I talked about when I saw a crazy kid and I was like envious of him as like what he is, right? Uh so you know, now I'm 30, 31. And when I saw him shoot, I didn't want to be him. I wanted to know how he got there. Uh, because it was, it was, it was nothing like I've ever seen before. And it wasn't the score that he got, uh, it was how he did it. And I was just intrigued. Um, I was intrigued by it. And I bring that up because looking back, that was that time in my life right there. And I tell this story because that was the last time I let my ego control me. In terms of, oh, like never never, you know, throwing a you know, a zing out to a dude I've never met before and and judging someone, honestly. Um like when I look back on myself now, I'd uh like I said, I wanted to burn the the pages in this book, that that version of myself. So anyway, um we we became great friends, and um he I didn't know, but he was kind of like doing like a Mr. Miyagi thing on me. Uh like I I I wanted to get better at shooting. I felt like I had plateaued, but I didn't know the next what the next level was. And it was competitive pistol shooting. So in the background, he was spending a ton of time. I mean, dude, if he calls me, I will answer every single time. If he ever needs anything, like he he has been that impactful to me. And uh we spend hours and hours and hours on the range. Um, and I'm just like learning all of these things that like no one had ever exposed me to, no one ever uh told me. It was the first time I ever read a book about shooting, and I'd been teaching people over the world, I thought I was a good shooter, and it was a hard reality check that I actually didn't know shit. What I was doing was I was just regurgitating what I'd heard before. And I didn't really I didn't really know uh how to how how to articulate what is actually happening uh shooting a pistol. Um and so we're spending all this time on the range, and then and then I get introduced to USPSA, uh United States uh practical um pistol shooting association. Um and I was I fell in love with it, dude. Um I had the same adrenaline drop on the the first stage of the of the of the match, the same drop I would have in my body uh before like walking onto a helicopter like before mission. And it was it was um the first time I had that sensation where it was like in a controlled environment. I've had the other sensation before, but like I'd almost be in a car accident or something, you know, where you you get that adrenaline drop. Obviously, I'm not trying to replicate car accidents, um, but I'm getting this every Sunday. And then with that, it was it wasn't just learning how to actually uh shoot, but it was it completely changed my entire understanding of how to train people to shoot and you know, through my own journey. Um and then I got heavy into the the competition circuit and uh I fell in love with hand loading my own ammunition. Uh so I get home from work and I'd crank out, you know, 100, 200 rounds. And and that was that was the the beginning of me uh becoming centered. It it didn't get me over the finish line, but it was it was the beginning of it was handloading uh ammunition. Uh yeah, so um on my off time, uh alcohol became like a major factor. And but when I got into handloading my own ammunition, um I can't I can't be drinking as I'm building my own bullets because I I don't want the round to explode in my hands. I don't want to mess up my hands, I don't want to blow up my, you know, three thousand dollar gun. Uh so is that a delicate process, by the way? I don't want to say it's a delicate process, but there is a um I'll tell you this story. I I have my a buddy, um, mutual friend of ours, and he was um handloading ammunition for me. And I I go to this major match in um South Chester, Southern Chester, Maryland. And before you go to a match, you'll shoot the ammunition that you shoot. You need to shoot it through a chronographer, and that gives you the velocity, right? And there's a calculation for the bullet weight and the velocity equals you know your division, right? So you need to check all your all your stuff before you go to the matches. Uh at every stage, at every major match, uh uh random um range officer RO will walk around and be like, hey, give me bullets from that magazine. You you unload them, and then there is a chronographer stage where you shoot your bullet, they weigh your bullets, and then it is supposed to be within certain parameters. So anyway, I um, you know, I I do all the the pre-fire stuff. Um, I had a chronographer, everything's good to go. And I go down to southern Chester, and there was a massive temperature shift. And I remember sitting in my car because I showed up early, and uh it was it was like cold out. And the lubrication I used on my guns was um Grease um Slide Glide by uh Brian Enos. Uh he's actually the author of the book that I was talking about, practical, um, practical uh beyond fundamentals, uh practical pistol shooting. Amazing book. And it was written in, it was it was um published in 1991, right? And no one had told me about this book until like 2016. So anyway, I'm sitting in my car, and just this thought came into my head of dude, temperature shift, uh this grease is not good. So I unloaded my my competition gun, not unloaded, uh took it apart, totally took off all the grease. I put regular CLP on, and then uh it ran great. Um there was another guy there uh shooting in the same division as me, and he had the slide glide on and his gun totally jammed up. Um, you know, anyway. So I go to the the chrono stage and I failed. And what I didn't understand was the bare the barometric temperature shift, the barometric pressure, and the temperature shift affected uh the velocity. And what happens when you fail chrono is you go into the open division, which the open division is uh essentially like no rules. Um you can that's when you see like the super crazy guns where it's like a giant optic on there, a compensator, uh they call it a gas pedal. It's like a place to like put your thumbs, um, giant magazine well. Uh it that is the fastest version of uh the sport. And I was shooting um uh single stack division, which is 1911, eight rounds plus one iron sights. That is arguably after revolver, that's like the hardest uh um the hardest automatic pistol kind of division. So I fail. And um after that I bought all my own. I wasn't mad at at the dude who handloaded my ammunition, but um I I bought all the stuff for myself and my checks like went through the roof of like my um making sure every round is correct. I would uh you know check every 10 rounds, which is excessive. But I tell you what, after that, never had an issue with ammunition ever. Uh I I never wanted to lose because of something that I could have prevented uh on the front end. And that has everything to do with weapons maintenance. Uh I had a logbook of how often I'd change my springs out. Um I had like strict uh kind of rules that I would follow match to match, uh, which interestingly was beyond what I did in combat, which was that in itself is mind-blowing. Why am I spending more time uh preparing to shoot a game on a Sunday than I did over in Afghanistan? Uh, which that completely changed how I trained my guys uh in my last deployment.

Retirement And The Cost Of Absence

SPEAKER_00 15:06

So it's pretty wild, man, to to think about your transition from combat coming back here and then getting into competitive pistol shooting. At what point do you feel like things started to shift for you personally? Like when did you start feeling sort of the the change to the next to the next chapter, to the next version of Mike? Uh it wasn't for a while.

Last Deployment Workup And Drinking Spiral

SPEAKER_02 15:39

So um when I retired uh from Marine Corps, I realized how much time I got back. Uh in my job field, even in the reserves, I mean my part-time job was essentially my full-time job. Um I was just spending an insane amount of time um being a platoon sergeant and and doing all the things to make sure when we show up to train, like everything's good to go, and then you know, execute the training. So I um I spent a lot of time away from my family. Interestingly, uh for all three of my sons, I deployed within I deployed or well, I started a workup um either as they were being born or within weeks of of all three of them being born. So I don't know what the first year of having a kid is like. Uh I left when they're just like laying there, you know, and they're all they're all you know bundled, and then I come home and they're walking. Um so anyway, I hadn't um I always like to be semi in control of of uh like what my situation is. So my my first appointment, you know, I you know, and when I was younger, early, early 20s, everything was like, hey, what's this next opportunity? Yep, right after that, I'm gonna go do that. And then um as I got a little bit older, I wanted to make sure that I I had a little bit, I I called it I'm in control of my own shit show. Like I know I have to go, but I I wanted a little bit more um control of who I was going with and not necessarily where we were going, but who I was going with. So um I volunteered to take a platoon to Southeast Asia, and this was the first time my battalion was assigned this this mission. And usually when you're f the first to go, it can go one of two ways. Um, it's just like a total catastrophe. Um, or you know, you understand that it's gonna be chaotic and there's a lot of unknowns, but hey, I'm I'm going in with the guys that I want to go with and and we're just gonna figure it out. And so uh I I volunteered for my last deployment, and that whole process was a was about 17 months. Um my youngest son, uh, he's turning nine on uh the 22nd. Um his birth you know, he was born the day after me. And um so I I I put these guys through like a pretty intense uh workup. And in my head, I was I was training them to be prepared for Sangin. Um and uh one one of the critiques was I built a mid-2000s platoon in 2017 and 2018, um, which didn't really get highlighted until we were interacting with our our uh active uh you know our active duty sister platoons, when I mean we were definitely definitely more violent than than uh the other platoons. We were definitely more intense. Um, but like during all the shooting packages, I brought everything I learned from competitive shooting into these new packages. And you know, I thro throughout my time, um, even before the deployment, I was getting guys into USPSA. And I mean, these guys were phenomenal. Um couldn't have asked for for anything better. And uh, but um, you know, I I told my platoon commander when we first got linked up, I was like, hey, look, like this this workup is gonna be intense. And I mean, we're you know, ultimately we need to totally like break them down and you know, we're we're gonna build them up like piece by piece. So we go through that workup, and that was when um that was when the the drinking really really kind of turned on uh on that deployment.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

And at the same time, and and and this was right around your 30s, right? I was 35. So going back to what the Navy SEAL told you, this is kind of right?

Okinawa Burnout And Divorce Reality

Recon Sniper Foundation And Compassion Fatigue

Mentors Across Ages And Overworking

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Yeah. I mean there there were things that were happening in the background uh that that I didn't I didn't understand uh until uh a little bit later, um, probably like 38, 39 was when I kind of had like my big uh you know kind of fall, so to speak. Um, but these things are like happening in the background. And um so I'm I'm I'm working insane hours. Uh I made sure that I was the first one to wake up and I was the last one to go to bed. And I would make sure that the guys would see me. And um so we do that workup and we um, you know, go to Okinawa. We check into Third Recon Battalion again, uh, which it was it was nice uh coming back because everyone from my 2011 deployment, it was um it was pretty there was a lot of bad blood between the the O321s, like the guys in the platoons, and then our entire uh leadership chain. Um if if you check out the book uh A Few Bad Men by Fred Galvin, uh he was the company commander for um task force violence. It was the first uh official Mars Ok uh company that got deployed, and they were the guys that were uh accused of you know murder and and all this like crazy stuff. And and those guys got drove through the mud, I mean, for like years. And ultimately, like it was it was all bullshit, um, which is like it's just sad to hear. Um but anyway, Fred was my battalion operations chief, and uh the last chapter in the book, he talks about uh our time in the Sangha Valley. Um anyway, so going back to that battalion was a little, I mean, there were it was definitely emotional for me. I think it was something to the effect of like over 80% of all the guys who could get out of the Marine Corps got out of the Marine Corps uh, you know, 2012, 2013. And and that uh, you know, it took a couple years for Third Recon and the Recon community in general to kind of rebuild its its numbers uh because of you know our our the the the toxic mismanaged uh leadership. Um, you know, I talked about in the the Last episode, like, yeah, it was like a pretty cool story to hear, but the the underlying tones was like we were denied air support, we were denied, um, we were denied any sort of support, you know, and we're being sent in to go clear this uh this compound cluster, like uh combo compound by compound with with 30 guys. Like it was it was ridiculous, you know. And um so anyway, um I I I tried stepping back into that unit like with a more positive outlook. And um I mean overall the experience was great. Professionally, it was it was one of the highlights of of my career. Um now financially, uh going from my regular job, you know, back to being a 14-year staff sergeant. I mean, I I dude, it was like 30 grand less. Uh and that really hurt uh my family um and our like financial situation. And um and and like I said, it was also just like the time. So it was total time for me was about 17 months. Uh and that was uh in around uh Jared was born in April, and then I went to breacher school shortly afterwards. Um, and then I went straight to the staff and CO course, and then I went straight into the workup. Um and then I had about 10 days leave before uh we went overseas and then you know, go to Okinawa for eight months. Um when I came back from that, I had about a a month off, uh, but I was still in Atlanta, so I wasn't with my family. And and then I went to dive school for two months. Um so I mean that was like a really, really long time. But anyway, so we're on island, and I um, dude, there there were things that were just building up that I didn't really understand at the time. And I would, you know, the team leaders would be like, hey Mike, like, let's go out. What, you know, what do you want to do? I'm like, dude, I need I need like a jammy day. And like they look at me and they're like, yo, what the fuck do you mean, like a jammy day? And I'm like, dude, I'm just going to play video games and I'm gonna drink and I'm just gonna like shut the world out. And um, this one day, uh, I hear this like pounding on my door. I open it up, it's my team leaders, and uh it was probably like one o'clock in the afternoon. I'm it I'm in my pajamas, and uh I was you know pretty intoxicated. And they're like, What are you doing? And uh I was like, dude, I'm doing my jammy day and they're like, You weren't kidding. I was like, nope. And they're like, Well, why don't you come out with us to uh to Recon Island? And it was this island uh about you know 300 meters or so off the the main island, and you know, guys would swim out there, just hang out on the beach, go spear fishing, whatever. And I was like, all right, whatever, I'll go with them. Um anyway, I bring that up because um, you know, later on uh during my time there, I I had this like thought just come into my head that was it was like this. It was like, hey, I'm ready to go home. Ready to go home. And the thing that I didn't realize was like I emotionally wanted to go home, but I didn't know how to go home. Um of course, like there was still several months left, I still had a job to do, I still had dudes to take care of, so like that was still like hyper mission focused on like doing all of that. Um, but I was just tired of uh being away. And so I uh I get home and I immediately realized like something was off like uh with my wife. Um and you know, ultimately that that deployment, and and she did three deployments with me, and uh, you know, in addition to our other job, which you know you're gone a lot, and um I mean that that deployment broke her. And when I you know we've been divorced for a couple years now. I mean, we have a great relationship, it's mutual, it's you know, it's cordial, but like I didn't understand like what was going on on her end, where even in training was, you know, we're we're jumping, we're shooting, we're you know, breaching, we're you know, doing crazy stuff. And she's like, dude, it was a lot, you know, uh, I was just waiting for the phone call where you're seriously hurt, or you know, you got killed like doing a thing. And that was never really a thought in my head while I was doing my thing. Um interestingly, like we we had almost parallel lives where she was a survival mechanism for me while I was away, and I was kind of like a you know a version of a survival mechanism for her, like but while we were apart. And in retrospect, I think like we had false expectations of of how the other was because we had such strong coping mechanisms while we were apart. Um you know, so anyway, I I get back from that and things are just kind of not good. And you know, but I'm like I'm ready to be home, but like what does that mean? Um overall, like that deployment was was harder than my my Sangin deployment. Um not in terms of uh like people getting hurt or dying and stuff like that. It was harder because I pushed those guys so hard um for like the Super Bowl that just never happened. It's like the the combat portion was was easy in retrospect because it would be um sometimes suddenly, sometimes it would be like a a crescendo buildup, right? Like I have this on a video I sent back to my wife at the time where it you know sunrise just happened, we're already out on patrol, and I'm just kind of videoing like what we're doing, and I would send back CDs of uh like these little like videos, like, hey, what's up? You know, hey guys, say say hi to Krista. And um there's this one where you know sunrise just happened, and then you just hear the machines gun, the machine guns going off. And I was like, Well, you know, I guess it's starting. Like, love you, babe, bye. And like in retrospect, can you imagine like getting that from your loved one? You're just like, oh wow, like I got a CD, you know, video, and we're just like all walking around, like everything's cool, and then just like, dude, like war starts kicking off. Um, so you know, so like slow crescendo build up to that, to where like, okay, now we gotta move, we gotta go support this other platoon, X and Y, Z, right? Whereas like this deployment, um, you know, non-kinetic, and it just it just ended, right? Um, and like I said, the the training that I put on for these guys was to survive uh a Sangin style deployment. So that was when uh it it was kind of in my face now, like a kind of like conflicting, conflicting ideas. It's like, okay, I want to be home, but like I don't really know how to be home. Um and then my son's godfather, who uh I'm his um his daughter's godfather, he's he's my best friend. He was my J tag. I talked about him in the last episode. He started uh he became the president of a he wasn't the president yet. He eventually became the president, but he worked for a vendor nonprofit called Recon Sniper Foundation. And he calls me one day and he goes, Hey, um, how's the competitive pistol shooting been for you? I was like, dude, it's it's been great, man. It's like it's kind of refocused me in a lot of ways. It's giving me something constructive to do. Uh, I'm drinking less, so it's all good. And he's like, What do you think about starting a team? And I was like, Okay, yeah, that sounds good. And so I was the the plank owner for the captain of Team Recon Sniper Foundation. Um, but interestingly, I found out that like not a lot of snipers and and recon dudes wanted to get into shooting after they um, you know, retired, got out of the got out of the military or whatever. Um, because we started with pistol and precision rifle, uh, which to me made sense. Um, but you know, talking to these guys, they would start getting into other things, right? So by the time I left, and I did that for about three years, um sponsoring guys to go shoot, and we, you know, we got custom jerseys, they had to have a jersey of a fallen uh recon dude or a sniper on their back, and um, you know, building communities. And um by the time I left, I mean, there was rodeo, skydiving, MMA, Iron Man. Like, if if a dude was into a thing and it was competitive, then we would sponsor him, you know, the best that we could to go help him um, you know, do the things. And while that was like very fulfilling, um, kind of two things were happening at the same time. One, like I said, and I had the thought of like, hey, I want to be home with my family, but like I wasn't home with my family. So like I I that was the first time of my life I realized I was definitely like a workaholic. And I was using work and stacking work on top of work, on top of work, to cope with everything that happened before, you know, back to what that seal said, like be careful in your 30s. So like there's kind of a bunch of things, like kind of all like building, building up to this, this, uh, this one uh you know year of my life. And um so I'm doing that. And uh the other part was I started to I started to hate veterans. And if you've never worked nonprofit, then you could never understand. Um but like it got to the point where every single day I'm you know on a conference call. Uh, you know, every every day, every other day, some conference call and something catastrophic is happening and someone is going nuclear. Um everything from like their their wife just uh cut the rope because she walked in and saw he was trying to hang himself to, you know, the the you know, DUIs and then you know, running from the cops and just ending up in jail and then going to rehab and then just it was uh it was a lot, man. And I hadn't fully processed like everything that that I went through. Right um, so I ended up resigning and it that was hard. Uh my my friend, he was he thought it was because of him. Later on, we we worked it out, but it wasn't because of him. I, you know, I I needed to work on my own stuff. Uh so in and around that time, I'm working uh on the West Coast um at a CQB school for marine recon. And um, dude, that that was that was an amazing time in my life too. Um, you know, there was a kid I met there, Gabriel. Um, he's about 10 years younger than me. And and this is something that I talked about in the book, which we'll get into later on, where I think it's so important to have uh, you know, you gotta really choose who you surround yourself with. And it it should not be all the same type of person or the same age person either, right? Um, I think you need you need to find mentors, probably about 10 minimum 10 years older than you. And you need to find, you know, you of course you need to have your peer group, right? And then you need to have dudes that are younger than you, about 10 years, and you are giving back and you are mentoring them. Um so Gabe was one of these guys, and uh I met him at the Recon Challenge in 2016, uh before my last deployment. And uh the the Recon Challenge is uh it's about 25 to 30 mile uh race. You have uh 55-pound rucks on, uh no water, well not no water, but before water, and then you carry uh one of the orange markers you use to mark an LZ. Total brain fart when that's called. Anyway, but on the flag, it'll be a fallen uh recall marine. Um I actually the first year I ran it, it was for Stephen Bixler. Uh I talked about his story in the last episode. Uh, and then the the second time I ran it, it was for Danny Gurr. He was uh one of the Rekondos that was killed um in in Sangin um on that deployment. Uh but anyway, uh it's like this crazy, you know, like I said, 25 to 30 mile race, and you're doing all sorts of crazy things. You're jumping out of helicopters into the ocean, you got to swim with your rucks, and then you're you know making the foot movements, and then there'll be like different stations along the way. You gotta do like loader radio and then make the call. You need to shoot, you know, shoot guns. Uh the the first year you had to change, you'll appreciate this. You had to change a Humvee tire, uh, which, dude, why are there so many bolts on a Humve tire? It's something I was at motor T, like I was just like, dude, what's so many bolts? And um, you know, rappel down, you know, the side of a mountain. And anyway, so we're on the obstacle course, and I see these two younger Rikondos uh behind us. And one of the objectives at the end of the obstacle course was your ruck had to touch the top bar of this uh rope climb. So my partner, Trey, he actually took over uh my platoon for me, uh phenomenal kid. I've known him since he was 19. And um, but he was an engineer. And so we're like looking at the obstacle, and he's like, hey, we can just like tie some 550 cord around the ruck, and then we at this angle we can do that. And I was like, okay, nerd, just tell me what, just tell me what we're gonna do. And so we like tie uh 550 cord around this now jeans, throw it over the top bar, and this is probably I don't know, 30 feet or something, and uh throw it over, and then we pulled it at this angle, our ruck just touched, brought it back down, and then we were on our way. Well, these other Ricondos, they were trying to make up time. And uh Gabe, I saw him, he just climbed the rope with the ruck on, and his partner climbed the rope next to him, and then I see his partner grab like the the ruck uh frame, you know, because we we run Alice packs and uh grab the frame and just like Hoyo can like punch uh the ruck and and touch the the top bar. And I just remember just thinking, I was like, fucking young Ricondos, piss and vinegar, uh, you know, they're just gonna get the job done. Doesn't matter if it's the smart way, the hard way, we're just gonna get it done. Um anyway, so I uh we ended up talking at the the dinner that night, and uh and then when I was going out to Okinawa, I knew he was there, so I hit him up. So we became really tight. Um weirdly enough, when he rotated back stateside, he was an instructor at that facility. And so we interacted with each other. I mean, for the for the next, you know, three or four years, you know, I'd go out to his facility for a month, he'd come to my facility for a month. We were, you know, working together uh all the time. Uh but long story longer, what am I doing? I'm just away again and I'm just not home, you know. So that was the that was kind of like almost like the right near the boiling point before like I broke um interactive.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Throughout this whole conversation, Mike, I just want to ask you a question, man. You were so caffeinated and highly driven to and hellbent on just performing and achieving something. Did you or were you running from something or running to something? So it was twofold.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Um one of them uh one of them was my father for sure. Uh and I kind of talked about that a little bit in the previous episode, but I um I was chasing approval and I didn't understand that uh for a long time. Um we are just now kind of rebuilding our relationship, but uh for you know, and and I've learned to accept, you know, who he is, and and I have learned to forgive and and he did the best that he could with the tools that he had. Um in the pre-show we were talking about um uh landman, which you need to watch. Uh but season two, uh dude, I cried twice. Um, and it was about like sons and their fathers, and then, you know, from you know, a a father who thinks he's kind of messing everything up, and then, you know, his his son is like, hey man, like, I think you're doing a pretty good job. Uh and that kind of broke my heart a little bit because that was kind of the thing that I was chasing like from from my father. Um, like, what do I need to do to to get like a hey, good job, man, or hey, good proud, you know, proud of you, like, you know, love you, dude, or you know, something, something like that. Uh so so that was that was the thing that was going on like in the the deepest parts of uh of my head, which uh oddly enough, I didn't uh that didn't really come to the surface until uh I went to therapy. Um and if if I know a ton of guys are hesitant to do that, um but I I think it was it was a good thing for me. And so I thought I was going into therapy for something else, and then ultimately like we were talking about like that complex. Uh, and that was a thing that I had completely compartmentalized, like to the the lowest depths of uh my head, and and now it's kind of like blowing up in my face, you know. So that was the first thing. The second thing was just the reservist like stigma, where I was another reason I was so brutal uh to those guys on that deployment was because I was trying to prove a point. Because if you've never been a reservist, um, you know, you show up, you know, to work with the active component and like there's just this shitty stigma. And I've learned to accept and laugh about it over the years, but I pushed them so hard to be better because I wanted to show up and I wanted to be better shooters, better planners, better patrollers, better assaulters, better everything. And now I'm working at this active duty facility and I'm training um first recon battalion, first recon battalion and first force recon in the Marine Corps. Like, is that those are the golden children of recon in the Marine Corps? I don't care what anyone says. And now I'm training these guys, and I remember I had this like weird thought. I'm standing there on the range and I'm with Gabe, and I was like, kind of just staring. He's like, yo, what's up, dude? I'm like, I can't believe I I push my guys that hard. He's like, What do you mean? I was like, for years, I, you know, would push these guys to the the edge of breaking, and then some of them broke, and and and I lost some relationships uh along the way. And but those who those who stayed the course and those who were with me, I mean, I mean, they were incredible reconnaissance marines. And I'm looking around at these guys and I'm like, I wouldn't even have let these guys come onto the range. He's like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, just the way their gear is, everything, the the you know, how they were when they showed up, I was like, I would have had, I would have just been crushing them in the tree line, just doing 321 eight-count bodybuilders, because that's the our MOS is 0321. So anytime you make a mistake, you owe 321 eight counts of something. Um actually, my my mentor Russ, uh, I got in trouble in Afghanistan for something dumb. And uh we get back from like a five day mission, and uh I forget what it was, but he's like, Hey, you owe me three two one before chow. And I was like, Roger that. And I just go out in the back, back of the tent and I do my 321 accounts. like on my own in silence and then you know go to chow. So anyway, um but it was just like completely unrealistic uh to a point with you know with how I was behaving. And um so th those were kind of the the the the two things. It was like the reservist stigma um and then it was uh it was just not being good enough uh to like prove myself to my dad.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

Yeah. I understand that that drive for sure. There's a lot of commonality between my childhood and my drive to join the military during a time of war when most people were not raising their hand to volunteer uh to be a part of that.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

Um and I also wanted to ask you too you were you missed out on the first part of your your boys' uh lives the basically the first year of their lives similar to me my oldest uh missed the first five months of her life um did you feel like there's a disconnect when you came back being a father to your boys was there was there a a certain amount of time or something you had to do to try to find that that natural connection because you missed out on that first year um not not really and I think I think it's because I had boys um I think that that that's a factor um but also uh you know my wife at the time was really good at um you know the the the face timing and you know they they had a pillow and a picture of me um it's on uh film you know when I when I would get home and and they were a little they were a little weird at first just like who's this dude um but I think back to what we talked about in the previous episode where I I've always been very very tribal um interestingly and I talked about this uh in the last episode too where I was the I was the bottom third physically in in recon school I was always at the bottom of the pack sometimes I was dead last um which that kind of drove uh you know me to to work on all all the things that that I was not good at um after that but something weird happened when we went to patrolling phase and I'm seeing these guys I mean dude there were guys doing three mile runs in under 18 minutes I mean uh studs right uh these guys are coming in from the ruck runs I mean they're just I mean they're just amazing you know the swims all the things and um but when we got to patrol phase like something like weird happened like I almost had this like superpower where I excelled uh in terms of like endurance and um and just like grinding out the patrol because I mean recon patrol is pure recon patrol is brutal. I mean your your rucks are 120 130 pounds you're going up mountains um it's very slow uh when you're when it I mean it in in planning you will plan for the speed and like because the commander needs to know your timeline and when you're briefing hey we're at during this part of the mission we're gonna be moving like 0.1 kilometers an hour and it's important to bring that up because recon patrol when you're long range you have to the only way to communicate is either satcom satellite communications or HF um high frequency. But for HF you have to like set up this big ass antenna like it's not a quick process. And so everything is very very slow, deliberate you might be on patrol uh recon patrol for you know several days and everything is everything says hey what's up anybody got it for like and and it's almost like when you get back from the patrol is you know you feel like alive again but it's like you know you have the the insane you know weight on your back and you're moving you know like I said sometimes 0.1 kilometers an hour if you're standing for more than three to five seconds like you're taking a knee and you're holding a sector and then everyone is standing up and taking a knee like that's like this kind of like slow grueling orchestrated uh like dance sort of um but I mean it is like it is grueling. But like I loved it dude. I, you know there there's there's some recon dudes who really hate that part of the job. They like the the sexy shit like the the direct action raids and flying in on helicopters and you know the explosives and all that stuff. And I mean that stuff is fun but um there is something about like moving you know you know across this mountain range and it's just you and and five other guys the six man recon team just fucking out there and being a sergeant recon team leader is is the shit. Yeah so this this like superpower um where like I just I know as a person inside like I just work better it in a group of people. I just do. And it took me a long time probably up until not probably up until very recently probably within the last year or two uh you know after the divorce and everything that I learned how to um you know be grounded uh alone um and a lot of that was through faith um but yeah there there was just something about me and like I just I know how to motivate young men to to do things they don't want to do and uh that is you know quintessentially like being a father um and uh yeah so and you know as they got older you know we we definitely connect a lot better um but yeah there was there was a uh large gaps um yeah you know that I just wasn't around and you know I have to say like their mother was like awesome at you know taking to the games and doing the the sports thing with them and you know and all that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

I'm sure there's certain things in her that you saw she possessed that you didn't have or you didn't have growing up I know a lot of times people that come from checkered childhoods when they if they're aware they try to find a partner that possesses a lot of the whether it's a good family or they are very grounded they they try to partner and link up with someone that kind of fulfills those voids that they don't have. I know that's kind of how I was for me with my ex was I she had everything that I didn't have. She had a good family she was grounded she was very calm very like just a good mother altogether so um I didn't know if you had the same thing when with with your wife but that's sort of the void that I had filled out because I wanted my kids to have you know a really good mom. But um yeah same yeah so I wanted to ask you man um we kind of glossed over earlier but you know you talked about you know delayed consequences and in combat mistakes they show up immediately but in life sometimes they don't and when did that realization hit you?

Turn-Based Strategy And Delayed Consequences

SPEAKER_02 52:58

So when I came back from my last deployment um my ex-wife she's one of five daughters and it's like all chick cousins uh it's it's it's all women and um there was one other boy and then uh and then my sons and as they got older you know we would be at the the family gathering or whatever and uh this one time it was around Christmas and uh there was a game store down the street and uh my son Jace goes hey uh let's go to the game store I was like hell yeah dude like let's get out of here so we go down the street to this game store and I'd seen Warhammer 40k um the game growing up and uh uh I played the video game uh the real-time strategy game um but I never played like the tabletop game so if you don't know what Warhammer 40k is it is uh 28 to 32 millimeter models that you build paint and then you assemble an army and then you're essentially playing risk life on steroids and um so we go to the store he sees it and he's like hey can we learn how to play the game so I I talked to the owner and he was like yeah his name is Brian um uh and he's like yeah come back come back tomorrow so we show up the next day there's some high schooler kid and uh he shows us how to play the game and I look at my son I'm like yo what do you think he's like dude I love it and I was like all right cool I guess we're like into this now and you know me being dad I you know now I gotta he was like nine at the time and uh now I gotta learn how to play the game and so I'm watching you know YouTube I'm like learning about this thing and um I found like local game stores where we lived so we started going to these game stores during the week and you know integrating with these like new guys a completely uh different environment and um we're just playing the game and what I found was like dude I've there's kind of three major parts to the hobby there's the story which there's over 500 books so if you're into like really long like they call it like space opera or like space horror uh if you're into that like the the story's phenomenal um and then there's like the hobbying and crafting side which is you know painting the models and then painting your vehicles and like uh and then there's the the game and then within the game there's kind of like two branches there's a narrative version which you will essentially play stories from the books which is pretty cool. And then there's like the pure competition side where you're building an army that is uh what is the most efficient um and lethal army that you can build and then you and then you go play against other people. Well there's like this entire like tournament circuit and like I said like I I've always gravitated towards like finding new groups of dudes to do stuff with and so uh no one from my game store wanted to play in the tournaments so I go online I research like where to go what to how to sign up like how to find these things and I just start going by myself you know I would drive you know uh Saturday morning an hour um to go to these tournaments so instead of USPSA now I'm like into this thing and um dude I fell in love with it man like I I loved everything about it um and what I started to realize over and this is my fifth uh year in the the competitive tournament uh kind of circuit um what I realized throughout that whole experience was I was an isolationist and I would have never said I was an isolationist before I was like what are you talking about? Like I have tons of friends like we all you know I talk to dudes all the time while I was only associating myself with recon dudes and snipers. Uh I had no friends locally uh all my friends are across the country across the world whatever um but essentially it's all the same type of dude so we all went through the generally the same training we all had the same deployments everyone's getting divorced everyone's drinking a lot like everyone's kind of just like the same and Warhammer was the first thing that really pulled me outside of uh my own circles the competitive shooting did to a point like I said like that was like the the right direction but that wasn't ultimately what I needed to to really start healing and processing like everything that that uh I've been through so I remember this one tournament um I meet this dude named Derek and uh he had these big ass fucking pajama pants on and a backwards hat um it actually said the the same thing our hat says now 40k dirt bags so he's he's like this and it just said dirt bags uh because that was the name of his uh baseball team when uh he was growing up so um we just connected like immediately and for about a year I would go to his uh house every Sunday and we would we would play and um you know we were both like uh you know hyper you know focused on getting into the the competitive scene and I mean uh Derek played baseball his whole life like he's a jock uh loves to drink beer just hang out and shoot the shoot the breeze and then like I said like we would spend hours together and we never talk about life really like the game is like that immersive and um we've only just within the past maybe two years um you know started really really getting to know each other in terms of like our other lives um and so he started a channel called 40k dirtbags and it was uh it was about like tactics and uh battle reports and I mean Derek like dude he he's one of the best players in the world and uh in a weird way like it was it was like another time in my life where I'm coming across like the best in the world right so I met JJ one of the best shooters in the world Derek he's one of the best um 40k players in the world uh these uh uh skydiving courses that we'd go to are like some of the best skydivers in the world in their sport and um it was just it was just odd that I would just kind of find myself in these circles but I every time I found myself in this new circle I'm starting back at the bottom and you know earlier when I said that uh before I met JJ that was the last time where I let like ego kind of drive my like framing of people or a a sport or an event or a thing um by this point like I'm like hey man like I'm not good at this game. And it took me a little bit to understand what the game is actually asking you to do. So you know you mentioned um delayed consequences where my life beforehand everything was immediate action immediate response you know I see the target I shoot the target I see the objective I hit the objective you know and then what is the next thing the next thing the next thing whereas in Warhammer 40k it's turn based strategy. So what does that mean? It means you have five phases within a turn to do the things right um it's like command phase that's your planning phase essentially and then it is movement um movement phase shooting phase your charge phase that's where you go into like hand to hand combat and then um and then the fight phase and then the morale phase and this whole turn might take 20 or 30 minutes. And so you're you're doing your play and your opponent can't respond until you're until it's his turn. And there's very few interactions um where he can immediately respond uh but there's like ways around it and stuff but what I didn't understand was like what I do right now can have you know can determine success and failure later on. And so uh you know like I said when I started researching all this stuff and then integrating with uh other players I mean they're dude they're guys like us they're working professionals and they find this hobby for one reason or another they're into sci-fi they're nerds uh they you know painted or or whatever or one dude I met he was a JTAC in the army in Afghanistan and during COVID his wife was like yo Dan like you need a hobby and he just researched and found Warhammer 40k um I met him in Las Vegas uh last year and uh dude he lives like an hour and a half from me right so you know um awesome awesome dude awesome time um but when I was researching this stuff I was like dude no one's written a book about like like what is going on in this game the core rules tell you uh what to do but nothing is really telling you how or why and so um you know Derek started this channel and uh at one point he was like dude like I I want to like take this to the next level and like I want you to do with me and um in and around this time and I have to admit like I was going through a lot I was going through the divorce I was um really like quitting drinking uh drinking heavily and um I was like not fully invested um but uh you know within the last year you know kind of I you know like I said I went to therapy I started jujitsu three years ago um I really had to learn how to be on my own and and like I did to those guys on that deployment like I broke myself down to rebuild um so a big part of that was you know jujitsu it was 40k in this like new environment these new guys I'm interacting with and uh faith as well um really helped me figure figure out you know where am I and what am I doing um and I was like dude we're gonna write a book and so I finished the book um I actually finished the the final final final draft uh last night and um yeah we're looking to uh publish it uh in around July and um one of the chapters is it it's not necessarily called like delayed consequence but a big theme is understanding um you know the difference between immediate you know response versus uh delayed response and I think understanding delayed responses helps you uh understand what am I doing right now like for the future, right? I think the easiest way to articulate that would be like investing in the stock market. Right? Like it's it's what am I doing right now with my money to have a long term uh goal uh in the future so the idea uh in terms of like how to structure the book um came from uh a couple different sources one of them was um the book's called the inner game of tennis and if you get in heavy into competitive pistol shooting the inner game of tennis is one of the top five books you read right you read Brian Enos uh Beyond Fundamentals Practical uh shooting you read um with winning in mind by Lanny Bassum you read uh inner game of tennis is in and around there um I would say the talent code is is another one um but the inner game of tennis right like how does a tennis book have anything to do with shooting and it's uh described as the greatest shooting book not about shooting so I wanted to write a 40k book not about 40k it's about all of the other ancillary things that uh 40k like can bring a person in terms of uh how they think about life how they um you know make decisions uh under pressure and I just started noticing all these similarities between what I did in the Marine Corps to competitive pistol shooting to jujitsu and then to uh Warhammer 40k yeah so it's sort of practical events tied to the book you sort of draw that you draw that line between War Warhammer and real life is sort of what you've done.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:30

Is there a lot of Mike Keebles when you show up at these events?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:34

Some yeah um yeah when uh it was my so my fifth tournament was the Las Vegas grand tournament um and dude again I I don't know anyone this is before I met Derek and I and I hear about Las Vegas open grand tournament and I was like fuck it I'm going That and so I buy a ticket, dude. There were over 900 players from across the world, and um you know, I don't know anyone, and I'm just sitting at the bar, and this dude sits next to me, and like he has the look, so we kind of just look at each other, I'm like, What's up, man? And then uh he's like, Hey, do you serve? I was like, Yeah, um uh I was in um still in the Marine Corps Reserve. He's like, dude, I'm in the Army National Guard. And we're like, oh uh, he was an SF guy, and um, he just came back from the deployment and uh you know had a similar kind of getting into the the hobby, and then um, dude, I still talked to him. I saw him when I went to Vegas uh last last year, and then I'll go again this year. Um and then uh yeah, my second year, I get paired up round one with the best player in the world in in my division. And I I see his name pop up because now, now like year two, I'm like fully I understand what's going on, and uh, and I see his name pop up and I'm like, oh shit. And uh, dude, we meet, and uh he's I had a KIA bracelet uh for Danny uh at the time. Uh it broke, it's it's on my bookshelf now. But um he was like, Hey, did you serve? I was like, Yeah, I was I was a Marine. And he's like, Oh, I was in the army. I was like, Oh, what'd you do? And he goes, I was a ranger. Uh I actually went to rip with Pat Tillman. And I was just like, What? Um, so we like, you know, you know, connected um, you know, in in that way. But yeah, dude, like you'll see you'll see everything across the spectrum of America. Um but I always kind of laugh inside when I'm kind of walking around these these major tournaments, you know, hundreds and hundreds of players. And yeah, of course you're gonna have like the the stereotypical like nerd or whatever. Um, and then you'll see a kid walking around in like a 275 Ranger bat hoodie, right? Like uh I've played everything from dudes that were uh they work in oncology, right? They're helping cure cancer and shit uh to you know, bankers, uh to sales, you know, salesmen. Um I met this other dude, he had a uh JSOC hat on, and uh, you know, throughout the game, you know, like each round is three hours, so you're spending like a big portion of your day with this person. And uh I was like, Yeah, what'd you do in the army? He's like, Oh, I was a surgeon for JSOC, and uh I was just like tell me about that. And uh he was just dude, uh awesome, man. You know, uh so yeah, like you're you will come across anything and everything, and it's it's opened uh me up to these relationships and uh interactions with people that are just completely outside of what I surrounded myself with uh before. So Yeah.

Faith, Identity, And Being Present

SPEAKER_00 1:09:56

Now you bottom line, it sounds like uh you being introduced to Warhammer was sort of a sense of therapeutic and at the same time identity driven. Yeah. Would you agree? Oh, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:12

Because like I um, you know, we we've known each other for a long time. Like in in a group, I'm usually like the loud one. Um and you know, I I was in an aggressive uh unit, I had an aggressive job, and then I go play this game, and dude, I'm like a noob. Uh I'm just getting like crushed. And uh I was definitely like a guppy in this like sea of sharks. And um, you know, going back to like not being ego uh driven and being okay with, yeah, like, dude, I'm totally cool with not being the the alpha right now. Um and I'm just like keeping my mouth shut and I'm just like observing and and listening and trying to learn like what this game is is actually asking you to do. Um and so I was watching this channel and they said, you know, pick your army based off of your play style, and your play style comes from your personality. And I'm listening to this and I'm like, okay, I get what you're saying, but like that is just not happening for me. Um I'm uh, you know, generally described as a super hyper aggressive person. Um and I don't I I still don't play super aggressively. Uh I've had to learn to re- you know, I've had to learn how to turn up the tempo uh in the game. Um, but that wasn't like a natural thing for me. I wasn't drawn to the armies that are considered like hyper aggressive. Um, I definitely liked like more of uh like a combined arms like style of play where it's like I we shoot a thing and then we go finish it off uh with infantry. Um kind of like uh what we did in the Marine Corps. Um But there was definitely a point where what I said to myself in the mirror like changed slightly. And uh dude, for years I'd look in the mirror and just be like, you're fucking weak, dude. Uh just really, really negative shit. Uh and it took me some time to be able to look in the mirror and say, like, hey man, I love you. Let's fucking have a good day. Um and there was a point in in my 40k journey where I did have to look in the mirror and just be like, dude, who are you? And instead of asking the questions of like, where am I, what am I doing, it's who am I and who I want to be. Um, and uh, you know, we talked about this in the slot the last episode, like changing um like facades and yes, I I am a certain way in certain environments because that's what the environment needs me to be and the organization is asking me to be. Um but I had to kind of rediscover and learn, like I'm just a nerd, dude, and I like I like cool stories, I like rolling dice, I love painting models. Um it's it's been amazing for me. And uh and like I said, like faith, faith has been huge. Um I was definitely a um like believed believed in God in case type of person. Yeah, me too. And um there were there were several mentors uh in my life, uh and no one ever really like pushed it on me. And and interestingly enough, these three guys, one of them was Zeb. I talked about him, he was the sniper that taught me how to land Av. Uh there was another guy, Chris, on my second appointment, and then Russ, uh, he's like one of my main mentors. They all said the same thing. They just said, hey man, did you ever read the Bible? And I'd be like, No, not really.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:08

And then uh, dude, after Afghanistan, I I got baptized um at 32.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:18

I was just like, dude, you know, because I used to be not used to be, I still am like heavy, like statistics, like, you know, probability driven. But there were just things that happened where it's like that is impossible. Like statistically impossible. There are too many things that happened just to say, like, yeah, it was just, you know, lice a box of chocolates. Like, no, that's that's not how it works. And um, so early on, um, I I just I bought a Bible and I I just started to read, you know, because again, like no one, no one really told me how to do the things, so I'm just gonna figure it out on my own. And um on that last deployment, um, oddly enough, we had a bunch of homeschool kids and they were you know really, you know, heavy uh Christians. And um, so I would jump in their men's groups. And so again, like I said, like finding finding people, you know, 10 years older than you, 10 years younger than you, uh, you you're gonna learn something. And um, you know, these guys, they're they're kind of introducing me to that culture and faith. And um, you know, so I just started reading and then um I kind of didn't read as much as I should. And uh about a year ago, uh I was in North Carolina doing this training event, and uh a guy mentioned this book called uh Undying Mercenaries. And if if you're a veteran, if you're uh you know, law enforcement, whatever, like you will love this this book series. And every book is a different deployment. And um, you know, of course it's you know, you know, in the future, you know, about a hundred years or so, and uh, you know, humanity is like out in space, like fighting aliens and shit, but like the characters are are so good. And dude, I went through 23 books in like three months. Like, if I wasn't actively talking to a person in reality, I'm I'm listening to this this book series. And when I got to the end of it, I was like, you know what, man? Like, if I can dedicate the time to listen to 23 books in in a couple months, like I should probably like work on my faith. So I get I open up Audible and I go to buy uh the Bible on audio, and I already had it. And I was just like, all right, like I'm in, I'm all in. And um, so I just started listening to uh different chapters and um and like dude, like I had no clear path, and then I just started to notice like these things are just kind of all connecting. Um and uh anyway, so I bring all that up to where I was doing a thing um for 40 days uh uh last month, and uh it was very boring. Uh I had to learn how to be patient, which uh I always love the definition of patience. It's how we behave while we're waiting. Um and uh one of the guys comes up to me, he's like, Yo, what are you jamming out to? And uh I just pull out my phone because I knew he wouldn't believe me. I pull out my phone. I was listening to Deuteronomy, and uh he's just like, that is the last thing I ever thought you would uh be listening to. Uh, which was just another funny situation of like uh because he was one of my students, and uh so of course, like he saw like that version of me in that training environment.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:59

Um, so yeah, that's that's funny, man. But you know what? You're right. In in in combat, things happen and like mathematically things could have easily gone the other way, and just by sheer faith, things bounced in like my direction, your direction, whatever, and and you're still here. Like I I had several episodes of that happen to me when I was downrange where I there was one time where uh I was arguing with another lieutenant on who's gonna go through the city first, and it was literally a flip of a coin. And you know, as the other Iraqi army unit was going through that city, because I wanted to go through first, but the other lieutenant won the argument, as that Iraqi army uh convoy went through the city and we stood there and watched them, we watched them get completely annihilated with daisy chained IEDs and small arms fire. And for me, like I stood up there on the hill and I looked down and I thought, oh, holy shit, like if if I if I had won that argument, we would be there. Like and it was just by circumstance that that didn't happen. And I had a couple other events too, man, where like I just I've always believed in in God and always been religious, but I should probably take the next step like you did and actually read the Bible and better understand you know what what the Bible means and what it's about. Because I have always throughout my life believed in that. Um you talked about I I hold on a second.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:39

I had uh I had an interesting conversation the other day, and uh I was just explaining uh you know, just where I'm at with faith. And um the person I was talking to said, you know, I I believe in God, but I just think like religion as a whole is just like a simplistic, like easy button way to explain the world and explain situations.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:07

And I was just like, dude, having faith and it's been the hardest thing I've ever I've ever done.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:21

Hands down um to you know, like I um we were talking about this a little bit in the pre-show where there were times where um you know I'm putting people through training and and they're super nervous or whatever. And I'd be like, dude, I'm I'm with you, man. I'm super nervous too. And they're just like, what are you talking about? Like you're not nervous about anything. I'm like, that is not true. Um, I think if I had one superpower, my superpower is compartmentalizate compartmentalization. Uh I am really good at kind of not kind of, but I'm, you know, good at taking the the bad shit that's happening in front of me. And if it's not relevant to the situation, I can put that put that away and I can, you know, hyper focus on the task at hand. Um, my wife at the time when I was in Afghanistan, she had uh cervical cancer. And there wasn't the the first thought in my head wasn't I need to go home right now. The first thought in my head was like, I need to be wired tight to make sure that like I get home and I need to, you know, take this job and take what I'm doing to to the umpteenth level of seriousness because um you know my biggest fear when I was over there wasn't wasn't dying. My greatest fear over there was was shooting the wrong person or blue on blue, god forbid. And uh blue on blue is uh a part of ground combat operations. I mean it just is, but you know, peop people like to, you know, you know, pretend like it's not a thing. It's a hundred percent a thing. And uh for me that that was my biggest fear. Um you know, so I made sure like if if I pulled the trigger, like it was it was, yep, this is black and white, rules of engagement are good, like this needs to happen right now. And if it didn't meet that criteria, then I'm not pulling the trigger. Uh, because there were a lot of times where, yeah, I could have, you know, shot in a direction or whatever. Um, but I uh could, you know, there were several times um, and to to put in perspective, right, I wasn't in the mountains. Uh I was in uh at for most of that deployment in 15 foot cornfields. Uh to this day, I see a cornfield and I I I'm better about it nowadays, but I'll feel uneasy about these, about just seeing this cornfield. Cause I mean, you know, you're up on a position and you're trying to like observe your sector, you can't see overhead movement. You like you can't see if someone's moving through the corn, it was so thick, it was tall. Um they would throw grenades over our walls. You know, like how how does that happen? How how do they sneak up to our walls and throw grenades over? Um there's this one time we were uh ripping out the unit that was going to take over our area. Uh RIP stands for relief in place. And you do this thing called left seat, right seat, where um their leadership goes out on patrol with you, and uh, and then at some point your leadership goes out on patrol with them, like for turnover. And um the unit that was taking over for us was called uh 1-6 First Battalion, Six Marines. And uh so we had their leadership. That mission actually, when we inserted, we get off the the CH-53 helicopters and we walked through weed fields for all night. I mean like 10 feet of marijuana and uh our Afghan army counterparts are like shoving buds in their pockets. You can have up to 25 pounds of of marijuana uh over there. And uh anyway, so we we hit this city and uh, you know, we're doing our normal things. Anyway, I go out and patrol, um, and uh the corn the corn was I mean right up to the walls, but we take over this position and there was about a there was like an open spot in front of the front door. So one of my buddies, Nick, he uh he's on security outside on you know one side, and then another dude's on the other side. And then we're all inside the the compound. And um during these like daytime kind of routine uh like presence patrols, um one of one of the jobs was to map the human terrain, right? So that was one of my ancillary jobs where I was the tactical debriefer and I'd have to interact with the locals, you know, get their biometrics and and all that shit. And uh anyway, I'm I'm in the back of this compound. And earlier I'd closed this door, and all of a sudden I hear pop, and uh that's the sound of the the Chinese grenades when the pins pulled. So I hear this pop, and everyone kind of looks up and then I hear grenade. And uh from Nick's perspective, uh the the guy outside on security, um, you know, he's just sitting there doing his job, and uh he's like, dude, this kid like emerged from the corn and he just looked at me weird and then walked away. And normally when the kids would come up to you, they'd ask for chocolate or dip or you know, cigarettes or whatever. Uh this kid looked at him and just like walked away. Nick was like, Oh, that's a little weird. The next thing he knows, he hears the pop, dude, grenade hits him in the chest. Boom, hits him in the chest. And so he caught yelled out grenade, he rolls over into a ditch, uh, like a sewage ditch, um, and the gr grenade blows up like on top of him. And uh, so I'm in the back of the compound when I hear this happening, and then I just hear that the dudes on the rooftop positions, they just start opening up. And um I'm I'm like looking around and I and I see a bunch of guys like moving to the the front door to go like support the guys outside. And it's one of those things where like if you're just not in the right position, like you're just not in the right position. And I'm looking around and I was like, oh dude, I remember closing this door. So I run over to the door and uh I start calling for support, and like no, no Marines are are coming near me. And I was just like, shit, dude, you know, because I knew Nick was generally in that direction. So if we were taking contact, it was it was from that direction, right in front of that door. And uh, dude, I see this Afghan army kid. He had just came out of boot camp and he's running, uh, running towards the door with a saw, um, which is a squat automatic weapon. It's a you know hundred-round drum machine gun. And uh I call him over, I'm like, yo, Data Rasha, I'm like, come here. And I was like, me and you? I was like, we're going. And uh he looks at me, he's just like, whoa. And uh woah is like, yeah, or okay, in uh Poshto. So I open up the door, and uh as soon as I come out, I I and I was comfortable going out there because I remembered there was about a three or four foot kind of wall right in front of the door. And um, like in the corner, I don't know, it was just randomly there, but I knew that there was cover running out there. So I was fine running out there, um, but I'm definitely not gonna go by myself. Dude, I run out there and then like, dude, grenade goes off like maybe 20 meters uh to my uh left. And when we debriefed this whole thing, um, that was actually a friendly grenade. Um one of the guys uh like the rule of thumb about grenades is like if you're in the back of like a fight or whatever, like your ass is not throwing grenades. Like grenades are for the front, dude. So he actually threw a grenade and uh and it landed short. Um that was the grenade that went off. And then uh When the grenade landed, I saw like movement like moving this way, like into the into the corn. So me and this Afghan army do, we start uh engaging. And then um dude, he he goes to his knees. Did you ever see Tropic Thunder? Yeah. Yeah. Dude, I remember looking over, I was like, damn, dude, you don't have a suppressor. Uh recon is it's a little bougie. And uh he dude, he looked like Ben Stiller on his knees when he's just like and um anyway, we uh we we both finish our mags and he finishes his drum and then uh we move back in, shut the door. Uh I I think a dude called me in, and um we get in there and I see uh Nick on the ground and uh Corman Rob is uh putting a pressure bandage on him because when the grenade went off after it hit him in the chest, uh a piece of shrapnel hit him in the ass like uh like fucking forced gump, dude. Uh so I see Rob working on him, and then uh I see the team leader, he's screaming at the other guy for throwing the grenade. And uh the crazy thing about Rob was um he was a combat replacement, and I'd met him maybe 48 hours before this. Uh so our first corman, he like broke his knee uh on our like first mission. Our second corpsman, uh, he got shot in the in the ribs, and uh so he was done. And then um, not done. He he lived, he he's he was all good. Which, by the way, everyone talks shit about wearing the the side sappies, but um, when they got ambushed in this alleyway, the the 762 round hit him in like the the top corner of the the side sappy and it blew shrapnel into his armpit. No one talked shit about wearing the side sappies after that. Um we actually dug the bullet out and then gave it back to him uh when we met met up with him again backs stateside. Um anyway, so uh we go back to Leatherneck, and in the last episode, I said, you know, we'd be out for about 70 or so days, and we go back to Camp Leatherneck to rest and refit and then go back out. Well, I meet Rob. And uh, dude, by this point of the deployment, I'm pretty strung out. Like I'm smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. And uh my platoon commander's like, hey man, like we got a combat replacement. Uh, you need to go get his, you know, get him ready for mission. Because we were going straight on mission from um Leatherneck when normally we would go back to our um patrol base and then go go uh out in zone. So, dude, I I find this kid, he was 21. And um, dude, I felt like Barnes from Platoon when uh like he meets up with Charlie Sheen when he's young and he's like, Yep, you don't need this, you don't need that. He's like, take all this shit off. He's got like the cigarette hanging out. Like, that was me. And um, and he's like, uh, what what uh what base are we going to? I was like, we're not going to a base, dude. We're going straight on fucking missions. So like get your shit straight. You need chow, ammo, frags, fucking go talk to this guy, he'll get your loadout for you. And uh so boom, 48 hours later, he's you know putting pressure dressing on on Nick, who just got fragged in the ass. Uh that was actually September 11th, uh 2011, uh, which was ironic because uh he was MYPD cop.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:38

Um but uh yeah, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:42

I mean I don't remember how we got on that, but that I mean that that's pretty wild, man. Um we got on that because what was the question that I asked? I think I asked about faith and just things that happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:00

Yeah. And like dude, yeah, you know, they're just things I I used to say, you know, and I would always I don't know if you remember this in the class, but I'd be like, yeah, you know, the universe or God's will, you know, whatever things happen. I used to say that to kind of like open it up to everyone. Uh but inside, like I'm definitely the the universe is God's will, man. Like, not to you know, jump down that rabbit hole, but like, yeah, man, I the there there is no doubt uh in my mind um about my faith. And and that has been a major contributing factor to like uh to just grounding me and being being okay with who I am and you know, accepting myself, you know, for forgiving my father and having grace and back to the landman thing. If anyone watches, you know, season two, like they know what I'm talking about, where like, you know, for a long time I struggled where it's like, why is it the son's job to like fix this situation? You know, like I'm the son, and uh it was um you know, it was through faith to to to work all that out. And uh it's if that's if that's my job to bridge that relationship and you know, honor my parents, then you know, and honor my mother, then that's my job, man. It's what I gotta do.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:36

Maybe that's something I should watch too, because I I I have a mom that I haven't spoken to in probably 20 years. And um, you know, my and a lot of times when I'm with my dad, he will just be sitting there in silence and he'll just look at me and he'll just apologize. And I'll be like, for what? He'll be like, there's things you don't remember. And that's it, and that's it, you know. And so maybe I should watch that movie because it'll help me process and help me help me forget. Um, because I I think of that all the time. I'm the youngest in my family, and I don't talk to many of my half siblings because they're, you know, drugs and and homelessness and all this other shit. So, like, you know, maybe I just need to learn how to forgive. So this but this is why I have these conversations. This is why I have this podcast, because in a way, this is sort of therapeutic for me to to talk about these things. Um, but I just want to ask you like one one last question, and I want to make a comment too, um, about you. The thing that I appreciate about you and your professionalism is that you know and you've seen it, there's a lot of like one um one talented individual, and they will just do that talent. Like what if they're really good at shooting, they'll just do they'll just shooting. They'll do nothing with jujitsu, they'll do nothing with tactics really, or maybe very little with it. But the thing about you is you seem to like throw yourself into these arenas and you're okay like throwing yourself into an arena and putting on a white belt and getting your ass kicked. And even though you are like a really great pistol competition competition pistol shooter, you have combat experience, you're a great tactician, um, and you do these other things great, you're okay with submerging yourself into something you've never done before and being a rookie and then figuring it out. And I think that's made you a very well-rounded professional, and that's what makes you a true leader, in my opinion, man, because I know too many guys that are just like, oh, I'm not doing anything but what I'm good at. And after that, fuck that, I'm not doing it. And I think a lot of ego gets in the way with that sort of thing. But and I want to ask you a question, um, just to kind of bring it back to this, but what's the common thread between combat, competition shooting, Brazilian jujitsu, and strategy games like Warhammer 40k?

SPEAKER_02 1:36:58

Ultimately it comes down to decision making.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:02

And you know, you you brought up a great point where uh, you know, and and one of the courses I ran, uh people could fail.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:18

Um and I was in it. Right. Uh and a lot of times people will have a greater fear of failure versus success. They're more afraid of failing than than being successful at the thing that they need to do. And to be successful is to uh accept that failure is on the table. Um you know, I'm mentoring these these students and I'm I'm talking to them and I'm helping I'm trying to help them work through like the emotional turmoil turmoil of the fear of failure. And something that I realized uh while I'm uh and this is like time after time, you know, class after class, and I'm coming across generally kind of the same archetype of person. Well, what I realized was like I had been close to failure in just about every school that I'd ever been to in the military. And that's not something that people talk about often. Um that, you know, you only talk about the successes. Um, you know, there was a point in time in recon school, marine recon school, like I almost got dropped. Uh almost got dropped in the Army's recon school. Uh at Breacher School, I failed the the explosives test. And uh a lot of these schools, like you you fail something, you go through remediation, and you have one chance to pass again. Other schools, if you fail one thing one time, like you can't fail anything else uh the rest of the time. So I mean, the pressure is like always on uh to perform. And um I, you know, was that wasn't something that I really thought about where I was just like, dude, I've almost failed so many times. And we were talking about this in the pre-show where I tried out for an organization and dude, I failed in the first 40 minutes. I'll flat out say it, you know, and it it was sit-ups. And I had trained for it, I was ready, and uh one of my best friends was on the the cadre, and uh, and he watched me fail. And that was the first time I totally failed something, you know, within you know, the the military, military-esque uh community uh ever. And I walked away from that and I and because of the competition shooting and 40k and and jujitsu and other things like this, I I I approached this a little bit differently. I told myself, I'm like, and I was about three and a half, four hours away from where I lived, uh where the location was. And I was like, all right, you can motherfuck yourself for the next three hours. I didn't listen to music driving back. I didn't listen to anything, I didn't call anyone. I just drove and I just thought about life. And um, you know, of of course, I'm saying every negative thing you can imagine that someone says to themselves when they fail something. And then um when I got out of the car when I got home, I was like, all right, like you're done. Like now it's time to, you know, continue on and and keep doing what you're doing. And in retrospect, like that that was that was my plan. It was I I that was not the path for me to go, to go do that job and to go, you know, live that lifestyle. Um the lifestyle I needed to live was being home and being present, um, you know, for my my sons. And that was something that I didn't understand that I was not doing. I was I'd either perseverate about the past, like I said, it took me about a decade to get over the mortuary affairs stuff, uh, to get over the Afghan stuff, to, to get over uh, you know, 40 years to get over the stuff with uh my father. And um, you know, so you know, I I was just living in the past essentially, and then also like planning and constantly thinking about the future. And yeah, of course, there are times in all our lives where it's like, all right, like what's the three-year, five-year, like 10-year plan? Um, but there's also a time where you get to where you're like, I can kind of plan out financially until I'm 85, you know? Uh, and that's kind of scary, but I bring that up because it's like you're you're stuck in the past thinking about, you know, bad things that have have happened to you. You haven't fully processed those experiences if you're, you know, thinking about them. And then you're constantly thinking about the future. Dude, where are you right now? And this is something I talked about in in the courses I I ran. Like, you know, where am I, what am I doing? And I wasn't present.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:49

Like I was home with the kids, but I wasn't uh um I wasn't like with them.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:58

Uh, you know, I remember I was going to college, um, like we talked about before, going to night school. And I remember this one night. I'm sitting there working on the computer, you know, worked all day, came home, you know, whatever. And my son was watching TV, uh, just sitting there on the couch by himself. And uh I was looking at my schoolwork and I was looking at him, dude. I shut the laptop, I walked over, and I just like sat next to him. Uh I think he was watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or whatever. Dude, he like snuggled up next to me, and dude, I just had like tears uh running down my eyes. Um I uh, you know, but even then I didn't know how to maintain um that mindset because I was just so stuck in um my past. Uh so I think like why do I keep putting myself out there? I do now because um, you know, like I said, back to that pre-interaction I had with JJ where I let my ego um affect me negatively. Like, of course, you need ego, right? We we all have it, we all need it to a certain point, uh, but it needs to be put in check. And you mentioned this thing, it's it's a phenomenon called the Dunning Kruger effect, where someone will be introduced to something new. So it's like, here's the level of competency, and this is the time you've been doing it. And it's like for some reason, when and we all have done this at some point, everyone has like you get introduced to a thing and you think you're a fucking expert. You go to one school, you go to one course, you go to one thing, you think you're fucking the shit. And you will stay in this mentality of like, yeah, dude, I know what I'm doing, uh, until something happens where you're exposed to someone of true mastery. You know, you you come across them just whether it's just by accident or you go into competition, right? And then you realize very, very quickly that like you actually fucking suck at the thing, and it it's 40k, jujitsu, competitive pistol shooting, it doesn't matter the the subject. Um and you go into what's called the valley of despair, and two things happen. You either um you either realize that you suck and you need to build yourself and seek knowledge and find mentors and build a plan, and then you know, you go on the the slope of enlightenment, or you just go back to your your small pond. You never go back to uh the matches, you know, oh that shit'll get you killed, or you know, you go to your first 40k tournament, you get your ass beat, and you just go back to your local store. Uh, you know, you you don't branch out. And what I found was like, you know, not to sound super hokey, but like I love the process, I love the journey. Uh, like I said, when I saw JJ shoot, I didn't want to be JJ. I wanted to know what he did to get there. And like his story, his ass needs to go on a podcast, but like, dude, he grew up in the Philippines, and his father was in Joe, uh, who coached him for years. Um, he was in USPSA, and then he let JJ shoot once, and I'm assuming he saw something in him, uh, because he told me later on, but he's like, he's like, I told JJ he has to dry fire for a year every day before he can shoot again. And and Joe was like, Yeah, I didn't think he was gonna do it, and he did it and he became a world champion, you know, and uh and dude, he was like 12, right? Like what like people don't understand, like he's been in this uh level of shooting uh for two decades by the time he was you know 30, yeah, crazy, you know, thirty-five, uh whatever. Um, but they don't understand like how long he's been on this uh path of mastery. And I tell you what, he's the humblest dude you will ever meet. Um so why does it happen? I think I think we are built to have some sort of ego. Uh I I think we're just designed that way, but it's up to us to put ourselves in situations where uh you get a reality check and you realize like, whoa, like I'm not anywhere uh what I thought I was. So how I approach things nowadays is I'm fully expecting to be I'm starting in the Valley of Despair day one, and I'm totally cool with it because I I just love the journey, you know, and and you know, like I was saying, jujitsu, dude. I was a three-year fucking white belt. Um, and I um I just got promoted like last week. Uh, but dude, something crazy happened uh two weeks ago where I show up to class, you know, I'm just doing the things, and the professor comes up to me, uh, incredible guy, incredible school, uh, South Jersey, BJJ, um, phenomenal, phenomenal school, phenomenal community. And uh he comes up to me, Steve, and he's like, Hey Mike, uh, can you work with one of our new guys? I was like, Yeah, of course. He's like, hey, you know, he's giving me the left and right lateral limits, and I'm like, Yeah, dude, I got you. And, you know, I give this kid a you know good role. I, you know, I'm I'm kind of not necessarily telling him what to do, but I'm coaching him through it and I make sure like the lesson of the day is in there, the move of the day, you know, all the things. Anyway, we finish, and he gets in front and he goes, Hey, um, uh, I wasn't gonna promote anyone today, but I'm gonna promote someone today. Dude, the first thought in my head was, Oh, dude, I'm I'm getting promoted today. And then he pulls out a brown belt. And I was like, Well, that's not me. And dude, my thoughts in my head from the parking lot to the main road were not good. I was motherfucking everything. And dude, this thought just came into my head, and it was this it was if you could have that belt right now, would you give up anything else you've ever done or accomplished in life? But but someone else gets to pick it out and and you don't have that. And I was like, no, fuck no. No way I would give anything I've ever done, any memory, anything. I wouldn't give anything up for something that I want right now. And that kind of really reframed how I think about like needs and wants. And, you know, back to the faith thing, you know, I listened to a Christian Orthodox podcast. Uh, I wouldn't say I'm Christian Orthodox, but it's pretty cool. It's been working for me. You you essentially listen to the Bible um in 365 days. And the the podcast that day was talking about, you know, Christ talking about needs and wants. And I was just like, all right, you know, if uh that that's what it means, like to to let go. Um and so that's that's how I kind of been reframing. in my head uh and and it's like we almost say it uh it's like an intrusive thought of like oh I want this I want that you'll you'll get it if you get it and if you don't then wasn't in the wasn't in your path man uh yeah that's a great that's a great way to look at it.

Therapy, Trauma, And Stress Science

SPEAKER_00 1:51:19

I mean and for you to have the emotional intelligence to tell yourself that is huge because most people would just be pissed off and continue to be pissed off versus trying to put things into perspective um like you did. Um so I think that's great that you shared that because the next time I get pissed off about something that's what I probably need to tell myself, you know be be grateful for everything else that I have. Yeah. Um and I wanna I want to go over this real quick man because I you glossed over it earlier. We talked about therapy okay I I'm I'm I'm a victim of therapy too. All right so I happen to think that therapy is great. Um I've gone to many different therapists in my entire time whether I was in Jersey over there or in Chicago I went to all kinds of therapists and to find a really great one can be troublesome sometimes but uh talk to me about what therapy did for you and talk to me about you know why veterans should consider going that route um it's not easy um I understand why from an administrative standpoint they called it post traumatic stress syndrome right and they did that to for medical reasons right um but it's it it's not a syndrome it's just what happens you know uh so uh a couple books that I read that were kind of along the way really impactful uh the first one was um Achilles in Vietnam and um essentially um they're talking about how the story of um the Odyssey is actually a PTSD story and that was his journey after combat and um you know another great book uh what it's like to go to war by uh Carl Marlantis um and then also uh the body keeps the score and the body keeps the score uh starts with combat trauma so super relatable like to us well the second uh shortly afterwards it talks about like childhood sexual trauma and reading through that made me understand a little bit more that like trauma is trauma um which again was a parallel to a uh a neuroscientist I was um I don't want to say working for consulting with uh his name's uh Dr.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:17

Justin Smith he runs tactical neuroscience so check him out on uh the gram um but a big thing that he understood was like stress is stress uh the difference is consequences and outcomes but in terms of like what's going on neurologically and like chemically in our heads like it's the same and um last year uh I was doing a CQB uh CQB course um and my boss uh he has this watch and my son's godfather has the same watch anyway we finished the training day and he's like all right my watch is telling me to go kill myself so we're gonna call call it here and uh we get back to the barracks that night and Chris was sleeping next to me I was like hey um you know so-and-so had the same watch as you like what was he talking about that he's like oh it's the Garmin uh Phoenix 8 I was like what did he mean and he starts showing me all the the stats that it keeps and one of it is your stress levels and uh I was like well let me see like see your stress levels and um I was so impressed with it uh it was around my birthday and I was like yeah I mean dude you get it like we're older I don't really need birthday presents I kind of buy and I I like have everything I want you know um and and need for sure so I was just like you know what fuck it I'm gonna I'm gonna overnight this right now and uh I get the watch and I start wearing it anyway fast forward uh I go to uh that Las Vegas grand tournament that I was telling you about and so you know it's a it's a two-day tournament it's three rounds per day uh you know hundreds and hundreds of players but my stress levels are actually higher than when I was in a live fire shoot house at night under nods with explosives all the things right and I was like damn Justin I was like I was thinking about him I was like dude this watch is it's confirming all that shit and so I bring all that up because one I think I think it's really easy for um veterans that went overseas to think like oh like you know people are comparing themselves and and comparing each other right like well you you weren't in the shit you weren't doing this that or the other thing and that's true to a point right like yes there's going to be different experiences that a dude in the infantry has on the front line versus a a guy running convoys right there are going to be certain differences right but I mean the stress and the threat of um dying or getting someone else killed I mean that's that is the same up here you know and so when when veterans think like oh like that you know nobody knows what I went through dude that is not true. One there's someone that has been more through more than you for sure but also there's like trauma is trauma. And so I think the first step is to realize that like you know everyone goes through traumatic shit and understanding that like what goes on here is the same again like I said the differences consequences and outcomes but neurologically chemically it it affects us the same and so I think that's like the first step realizing like you're not the only one that was a thing I used to say to my guys on deployment whenever someone was like oh I'm cold I'm like oh you're the only one who's cold right now hey Meredak's the only dude who's cold right now guys like dude shut your mouth right like everyone's cold you know oh you're hungry I'm fucking hungry too dude um so uh you know so it's getting over that the second part is like these people are here to help you and um I was super hesitant of um you know going to the VA for uh PTSD and and then uh my mentor Russ he was just like you need to do it dude like we went through some shit like this is you know you you go for your back and you get you know you do all these other things we're in a helicopter crash like we you know we do all these things to help ourselves physically but like what are we doing to help ourselves mentally and uh you know I I was just like all right I'm gonna do it and um dude I I talked to this uh psychologist at the VA and she didn't really say much but like I felt pretty good you know just getting it out there into uh into the into the universe um and just saying it out loud and um anyway so I ended up going to uh a therapist for a little bit um I actually called the the employee assistance program like I I went through that whole uh process and I met this woman Cindy uh super nice lady um and I I was uh so when you call them you can kind of request certain types of people and I was like uh I was like look I want a woman and I want someone who has no law enforcement or military background. Like I wanted to, you know, whatever. They ask you like you know uh who do you want? And uh they give you like option and stuff. So I meet this woman Cindy and um you know like I said we we started with like the the combat trauma and stuff but what it really turned into was like that thing I was talking about like the the shit with my dad that I had just like buried for the last you know at the time like 38 years. Um and uh I um yeah I didn't realize like how much I was holding on to uh like those feelings and um you know like we talked about earlier it was through faith that helped me like forgive and uh I I I've heard this multiple times and it was like forgiveness isn't for them. Forgiveness is for you. Forgiveness also doesn't mean access right so it's like you know learning how to be grounded right like that sounds cool but like what does that actually mean man you know uh and to me it's like I'm just I really focused on being present like being here with you right now very focused on what we are doing and I don't care about tomorrow. Today was a great day but I'm not thinking about that and you know I'm I'm I'm here with you right now and you know that it's almost undescribable like that's the best way I can articulate it is just I am here with you right now and I'm not on my phone thinking about whatever I'm not instafacing or fucking whatever. Like I'm here and we're we're gonna do the things whatever it is and I try to apply that uh every day and it's not like I wake up and I'm like I'm gonna be fucking present today. No, dude like that is a uh a constant thing throughout the day where I'm just like get this out of my head and um the thing I'll say to myself is just release me. I was listening to uh Sean Ryan uh a couple months ago he had this Catholic priest on there and he was talking about uh the seven types of demonic possession and one of the Sean the the uh interviewer asked him he's like well how do you like get rid of these like kind of demonic entities which I always describe to myself as just I and I would always say this loosely ish but like I felt like the devil's in my head just like these like bad fucking thoughts dude about every everything everybody myself just bad shit and uh he said just pray to release me from you know and just talk about it. So I started doing that and uh dude I just the best way I can describe it is like I just felt lighter the next day. And so anytime I'm getting impatient uh dude I did it today driving I was on 95. I almost got into like two car accidents uh you know I drove an hour and a half to hang out in a spot only to be there for an hour or four and then I just drive an hour and a half back but driving there uh dude I'm Jersey driver you know get the fuck out of the way you know brrrrr and I was like stop I'm like hey release me and um you know I'll I'll say a prayer and I'll just go through it and I I will just keep saying it until like my mind finally just gets quiet dude and that's what I've learned um you know the last year or so where like my mind was like never quiet.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:04

I could never just sit even right now I can just sit I'm not thinking about you right now.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:12

I'm not thinking about nothing I can just be quiet in my head and that's that's the best way I can describe uh being grounded um and just being present so who are you who who are you and what did you do with Mike Keble where is Mike Keble this is not Mike Keble I tell you that right now no actually I'm really proud of you I can tell I can tell by having this conversation with you that you have a different energy about yourself and you're very you are grounded and um that's the reason why you're so clear when you're telling your stories and sh it's so so clear and so structured because you are here with me right now and you are explaining something that you can see very clearly. So you you're you're at a different place than I am you're at a better place than I am. Like I'm not where you are yet um and I want to be and so just me having this conversation with you is helping me out because I know I need to read the Bible and I need to watch Landman season two to try to put away some of my issues. So again I this is why I do this podcast man it's it's for other people to hear great stories and great journeys like yours and then also to it's for myself it's been for me to try to figure things out on my own.

The Book And Lessons For His Sons

SPEAKER_02 2:05:39

And Micah I wanted to ask you man this book this book who's it for who should read it yeah so it's called Tabletop Gaming for Life from the creators of 40k dirtbags this is one of our hats um it's a that's Space Marine. And then we went with like the cop off the MLB logo because Derek played baseball. And so it's it's really about anyone who's interested in a perspective of just performing under pressure. I uh when I was in early drafts um I was thinking about how I wanted to introduce uh the story and you know what like I said I I've read a ton of the Warhammer books so I'm like pretty familiar with uh with how they write and the stories of the the superhuman space marines that are like in combat and I had a similar kind of experience uh in Afghanistan that a lot of these writers uh write about um not to tangent too far but when my when I started playing with my kids like I said there's like a narrative version and then the competition version so narratively I um I took a screenshot from uh it was actually Dubai and I made a a GRG a grid referencing guide so basically the military uses that to easily uh um you know understand where you are in your immediate like battle space and so it's like battleship right so it'd be like hey I'm in compound two two in Quebec 5 Romeo so you look at Quebec 5 Romeo compound two okay that's where he's at and so I wrote out this whole narrative of how my sons are like the main characters and they're space marines and of course they they meet nefarious characters and like the mission goes to shit and they got to figure it out and then on the GRG I'd have different numbers on there and they'd they'd, you know, you know Saturday morning I'm like, hey man what's the next mission? They'd they'd pick it on the map and I would set up the board to look like that and then I would read them the the story. So I already had kind of like the Warhammer's style writing you know kind of in my head. And um so to introduce the book I was like all right I'm gonna use this experience. And um I sent that out in a very early draft to a couple close friends and uh the one kid um his name's Casper he was uh the data guy at my unit and if you can imagine the his call sign was nerd uh if you can like any movie that has the the guy like the operator like calls on the phone they're like hey Casper like we need a we need you to hack this like he's that he's that dude uh incredible um really proud of that guy and um he was like hey so like what happened on the rest of that mission I was like I don't know I wasn't really gonna include like kind of any of that shit in the book and he's like no he's like dude he's like I'm digging all the other stuff but like that was cool too and then I went down this rabbit hole of like did you ever see the movie Memento? No. Oh come on dude I went on a early 2000s spree a couple months ago so dude I watched Boondocks Saints uh Memento uh now I'm drawing a blank from that that time anyway so Memento the story is told backwards it's one of those types of movies um oddly enough I didn't realize when I would teach classes and say hey I'm gonna Tarantino this a little bit that like now I got older a lot of the 25 year olds and below like never saw pulp fiction like they don't know who Quentin Tarantino is so someone someone finally told me they're like Mike we have no idea what you're talking about when we say that and I was like oh dang um I dude I'm like watch Pulp Fiction be cool bitch right anyway be cool honeybody um I went down this rabbit hole of like so I told the end of that mission as the intro and it's when we're extracting from this one particular mission and um dude it was uh in in a weird way that that was the most impactful mission of that whole deployment for all of us and um most of us and uh it starts off uh I was running point uh because the you know point man got sick uh everyone had dysentery we had to ground medabac them earlier we're drinking dirty water it's like drink this shit water or fucking die uh we're out of IVs like it was uh interestingly enough my my one of my recon school instructors was on that deployment with me and I remember in school we were all like on the side of this mountain and we've got the heavy rucks on and everyone's you know tired and shit and he's like what's wrong with you guys and someone's like dude like the rucks are heavy he's like dude there's force recon Marines in Afghanistan right now with IVs in their arms and they're still on mission. And at the time I was like okay dude well fast forward four years we're in Afghanistan we're out of IVs there's guys over there with IVs in their arms and we're still running mission and I sat next to him I was like I thought you're full of shit Lynn and here we are um so anyway I'm running point because half my platoon got medivact for dysentery and uh uh you know I'm standing at the door team leader's like hey take us out and um I'm running down this this trail and um and I hear the helicopters overhead. It's pitch black at night like there's no illumination our you know PVS 14s like fucking suck and um all you know all of a sudden I see like this like this bright ass uh infrared light come down from the the helicopter marking the landing zone. And so I hear like shift left like from behind me. So I I just shift left and I start running uh into the corn um dude I tripped on my feet I had a 240 across my back because like people don't understand this like when dudes get medavact like your equipment stays like half the platoon goes down while all their shit is now carried by the rest of the guys and so dude that ruck was the heaviest rock I've ever carried in my life. And uh so I'm running dude I trip on my feet and I'm so top heavy because I had the 240 machine gun T bone across my shoulders I like somersault forward boom I slam into the ground and like as soon as I could realize what happened the the two guys behind me, they see what happened. They they pick me up by the machine gun and then like we just keep on running and I'm just like running towards the light. And then you know the helos are getting closer Like the you know, the the the sounds getting, you know, it's you know, I don't have earplugs in and we didn't have I didn't have peltors or anything. And uh and then like I see, and then finally I can like see it kind of coming through the our shitty night vision. And then um, anyway, so like I take a knee, like the rotowash hits me, it's like and then uh you know, I'm first on the bird because I'm boy man. And um, dude, so I you know, that was the beginning of the book. And uh so when other guys have read like the you know, the final manuscript, some dudes are like, oh man, like I liked how you kind of like tied this into there. And I was like, it really, really wasn't nothing was really tied into that. If anything, that was a parallel story. If you could be inside my brain, like when you said, like, where, you know, who are you and what have you done with Mike Hebel? Um, if you were to be inside my head, like that mission and and has has been like here's happening real time, and like this mission is like right here as I uh you know have lived life. And when I said earlier, like I was always thinking about uh that mission and and that deployment. And um, so anyway, um it's it's not really part of the book. Yes, it's in the book, but it's not really tied to the story, it's just a parallel story within uh the story. So who's the book for? It's for um anyone who wants a different perspective in uh uh approaching uh making decisions under pressure. And um, you know, I I go over ego, um, uh risk management, emotional intelligence, mission planning. And I I wanted to talk about it conceptually. Um I didn't want to go into like the nitty gritty details because again, selfishly, part of me is like, hey man, like you need to go figure that part out. I'm gonna give you the I'm gonna give you the framework and you need to fill in the color of of how you can take these concepts and then apply them uh to your game, but also to life in general. Um I I was very wary of like I'm not uh I was very wary of being like preachy. Um so I did the best I could to uh excuse me, like avoid doing that. So I tell some stories in there um just to kind of explain my framework and why I am the way that I am and and how I came to these conclusions uh with certain stories. And I kind of picked up uh picked that style up uh along the way just reading other books.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:53

So yeah. Yeah, it makes uh it really makes a lot of sense as far as like how things parallel within your book um and how they're related. By the way, I want to say happy birthday. I want to round this off by asking you a final question, and it's a question on what message you have for your boys. We talked about your life, your adult life, starting out as a cook, uh, going into mortuary affairs, going into marine recon, having all these amazing experiences, and then getting out, finding your identity, um finding Christ. What what would be a message that you'd want your boys to know about life and and how they should pro program or what they should I guess put as their number one?

SPEAKER_01 2:16:54

I had a feeling you were gonna ask me that. Um So I've been thinking about that throughout our conversation as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:17:02

Um There's probably so much to say, right? But what's that what's that number one thing that you need them to know?

SPEAKER_02 2:17:10

So one that I love them and I'm so proud of them. Uh they've taught me more than they'll ever understand. Uh they won't understand until they have sons. Um you know, each one of them has has taught me a lot about myself. They're they're so observant, everything you do, everything you don't do, which I think is the bigger one. Um but I'll break this down for kind of the the next big phase the two of them are moving into. And uh and that's kind of transitioning from high school years into your 20s. And I would say say yes, take risks. Um a lot of my twenties was just being like, you know, either someone asking me, hey Mike, you want to go do this? Fuck it. Yeah, let's go do that. Um, or I was just like looking for something and I'm like, I'm gonna go do, I'm gonna go do whatever. But a lot of the the doors that opened up for me were because I was willing to put myself out there uh and and you know jump into the unknown. I didn't I didn't know what Mortuary Affairs was gonna have in store for me. Um I knew I wanted to go to Iraq, um, but that led me to recon. And and that led me ultimately that led to us meeting up because um, you know, I wouldn't have uh worked for the place that we worked for if it wasn't for one of the guys that I met along the way. And when you think in retrospect of like, man, how did I end up here right now? And and you kind of dissect and break down like all the decisions that you make, um, I would say a common factor for me was yeah, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna go do that. Um I think another kind of side part to that is uh if someone calls you and it's someone that you trust and someone that you respect and they're like, hey man, I want you to come do a thing with me, just say yes. You know? Uh I wrote about that in the book when Russ called me about Afghanistan. He uh dude, it was like literally my phone goes off. I didn't know him super well at the time. It's not common to get a call from the battalion operations chief, you know, Master Gunnery Sergeant. And uh he calls me and he's like, Hey, uh, hey, I got one seat for Afghanistan with Third Recon. Are you in? Are you out? And I need to know right now. And I was like, I'm in, dude. Didn't know exactly where we were going or what we were doing, but uh, you know, I trusted him. And I bring that point up because um the kid Trey I was talking about, he's not a kid, he's fucking in his 30s now, married kids, right? He's a grown-ass man. But uh I called him to go to uh a unit that that I retired from, uh Third Force Recon. And I was like, you know, I went there um kind of not really on uh sort of on a whim. Uh I was at a uh I was at a living funeral for one of my sister platoon mates, Dom Hall, and uh dude, incredible man. Um he got pancreatic cancer at like 32, and then the group messages go out, uh he's got six months to live. So we all go to um uh Wisconsin and uh dude we have a a paddle party for him and and we're spending time with him and um you know because he was you know he was dying. And um dude, I hadn't seen some of those guys for over 10 years uh from that deployment. And uh my platoon commander was there, and we kind of lost touch. And uh he's like, hey, where are you right now? I'm like, dude, I work for the S3, which if you don't know what that is, it's it's battalion operations. Uh you're you're doing a lot of paperwork, a lot of planning shit. And I don't mind doing the planning stuff, but I like to go execute or at least help observe, execute, you know, mentor the the junior uh team leaders and stuff. And uh I was like, I'm not in a good place right now. And he's like, why don't you come to third force? And I was like, I'd only go there if I can be a platoon sergeant again. Uh and he's like, Yeah, we can do that. I'm like, are you there? He's like, yeah. I'm like, what do you do there? He's like, I'm the fucking lieutenant colonel, I'm the 05, dude. Whatever the fuck you want, like, we can do that. And I was like, pfft, okay, cool. So I transfer over and uh I get a platoon. And um, dude, I I was able to retire uh 21-year gunny platoon sergeant with Force Recon Marines. And uh, dude, I I loved it. And I I got to finish exactly how and where I wanted to finish in my journey in the Marine Corps. Um, but when I got there and I just saw like the the culture of the dudes, I started making calls to my guys. I'm like, hey man, like you should come. And um one of them came like six months later, another came like two years later, and then I got a phone call from a guy who just checked in two months after I retired. And uh I was talking to Trey the other day, and and uh he's like, man, I wish I came sooner. And uh I was like, look, man, like just take have that be a lesson learned. Like when someone you trust and someone you respect calls you and says, I want you to come hang out with me and go do this thing with me, dude, that's all you need. You don't need the details. Like to have the honor of getting a phone call from someone like that, dude, just go and everything else will kind of buff. So I would say as as my sons, you know, graduate high school, go into that that weird funky phase from 18 to 20, and then in their 20s, dude, say yes. Go do things.

SPEAKER_01 2:23:34

You don't need a ton of information, just go and and you'll figure it out.

Closing Takeaways And Where To Follow

SPEAKER_00 2:23:41

That's a great message, man. Great message. Um for folks out there who want to follow you, Mike. What social media platforms are you on? Uh so we're mainly on YouTube.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:51

Uh, I just started the Instagram just because uh you gotta be on the gram. Um so yeah, uh, you can go to our website, um 40k dirtbags.com, uh, or follow our channel, 40k dirtbags. And uh yeah, our our podcast, we took a different direction from the other kind of tactics channels, and we it's it's essentially like a pressure cooker for a lot of the topics in the book. And we just talk about life and you know how that applies to 40k and how 40k applies to life and just kind of everything in between.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:28

Yeah, I love it, man. I love just uh how you tied everything together and you talked about your own journey and and your evolution altogether has been absolutely amazing, man. Was there anything that I didn't mention in this podcast that you want to mention before we end it? No, dude, I appreciate your time. This has been great catching up with you. Uh, so I appreciate it a lot. Yeah, man. No, the honor's all mine, man, to be honest. You you were uh pretty instrumental in my growth uh training-wise, um, helping build my survivability. Um I can now stand amongst other uh law trained law enforcement officers and get into CQB and and run with them. I just did it last week. Um, and a lot of that is because of the very difficult, challenging uh training that you had put me through. And so I I appreciate you uh and I highly respect you as well. So thank you for having this powerful conversation with us. Um I think that um we didn't plan on this podcast going on this long, man, but I love the detail that you went into on everything. There's a lot of life lessons to be taken away from this. And um, and here's what I want you to take away from this for those of you listening out there. Not every bad decision hits you immediately. Some of them sit, they build, and they show up later when it's harder to fix. That's when clarity matters. That's when simplicity matters, and that's why decisiveness and controlling the tempo matter, because the fight doesn't start when something goes wrong, it starts in the decisions you're making right now. If you've got value from this episode, make sure you share it with someone who needs to hear it. Make sure you follow Mike on Instagram and also I'll slam the uh links for the Instagram and the YouTube down in the show notes. So if you're listening to this, scroll all the way down to the bottom of the show notes. You can find the links there where you can follow. I think that this sort of thing uh can help therapy-wise, can help some of our combat veterans out there uh cope with whatever's going on up here uh in their heads. And um, I want you to remember that survivability isn't just physical, it's how you think, how you decide, and how you operate under pressure. So, for folks out there, as always, until next time, I want you to stay tuned, stay focused, and stay motivated. Warriors, fallout.